With Donald Trump's legal team working overtime to delay or
dismiss several ongoing legal battles involving the former president.
First, the Trump team moved to dismiss the indictment in
his federal election interference case by claiming
presidential immunity. The former president claimed his efforts to overturn
his 2020 election loss and remain in the White House
were at the quote heart of his official responsibilities as
president. In New York City,
the Trump team filed to have his case dismissed Regarding
the falsifying of business records,
the one related to hush money payments involving adult film
actress Stormy Daniels.
They argued prosecutors waited too long to bring their case.
Next up, the former president's classified documents case where Trump's
lawyers have once again asked Judge Aileen Cannon to postpone
the trial until after next year's presidential election.
This while he's chatting about nuclear secrets.
Also, the former president unexpectedly dismissed a
$500 million lawsuit against his former lawyer Michael Cohen yesterday
while vowing to revisit it at a later date.
Trump had been scheduled to sit down for a deposition
in the case on Monday.
Interesting timing. And lastly, Donald Trump's lawyers are expected to
ask for a pause in his civil fraud trial today
after an irate former president left the courthouse and in
New York City on Wednesday.
His attorneys returned yesterday and informed Judge Arthur and Goran
of their plans to seek a stay in the case
where the former president could have to pay a
$250 million fine and be stripped of all of his
New York State properties.
They want to stay in that.
They want to delay. Literally
everything. Joining us now, former Watergate prosecutor Jill Wine Banks.
She's an MSNBC legal analyst,
criminal defense attorney and former Watergate prosecutor.
John Sale, state attorney for Palm Beach County,
Florida, Dave Ehrenberg, senior executive editor for Bloomberg Opinion and
MSNBC political analyst Tim O'Brien and MSNBC host Simone Sanders
Townsend is with us as well.
Great to have you all.
Gosh, so many great people.
Tim, I want to start with you because the civil
fraud trial had so much drama this week with Donald
Trump showing up for a case,
he lost. At least a huge part of it.
He's already lost. It's been decided.
Yet he's showing up day after day claiming by the
way,
he has to be there when he doesn't.
I hear a lot of people kind of
almost enjoying and saying the reason Trump is so upset
about this is because he's finally exposed.
Trump can lie about his brand and and his money
all day long.
I don't think that's it.
Is there something that more to the heart of his
ability to operate as a company and as an individual
given what he's facing here?
Well, as you mentioned Mika,
this was already somewhat baked in before the before the
trial even began.
You know, the judge in the case already said he
was guilty of fraud.
He already recommended that Trump's business licenses,
licenses get pulled in New York and it looked like
he was going to get fined.
So this whole process right now is just really establishing
how bad the pain will be for Trump.
And what's remarkable about it is even facing that when
he has every reason to discipline himself and court the
judge and try to limit the severity of the sanctions
he's facing, he runs into this whole thing like Yosemite
Sam shooting himself in the foot,
shooting people around him jumping up and down.
Because I think there's two things going on.
He knows. He knows that he's cornered and he's angry
that he's cornered.
I can't, I don't remember another public,
you know, serial display of anger and and aggression from
Trump in a public forum like this.
And I think it's because of it's about his money.
It's about family's business history.
A big portion of his wealth is tied up in
New York.
He's likely to be exiled from New York.
I think the other reason is he's obviously playing do
is the Mogga base in the GOP.
But that's also, I think,
a political miscalculation because I don't think he can get
elected
on the on the backs of those voters.
He needs to be quartering moderate and independent voters,
and I think they look at this sort of display
of anger and angst as as grotesque,
and I think that'll hurt him in the national election.
So he's not thinking straight because he's cornered.
I would agree with you on the moderate Republicans that
he needs.
Many work for businesses or own businesses,
pay their taxes, don't exploit the laws or try and
claim that their hardware stores are double the size or
the new wing that they put on their business is
3 times the size that it is.
They go by the book when it comes to their
businesses and they try and lead an honest life.
And what this is revealing is that
Donald Trump has been a massive fraud for years.
And the apartment analogy is just
perfect. Actually, let's run through this and then I want
to get to John Sale on the bigger picture here
with the constitutional crisis.
Jill Wine Banks. Donald Trump says he's immune,
He's immune from being accused of trying to steal the
election.
Your thoughts?
I don't think he's immune.
He relies on cases that were civil cases.
There's never been a holding that someone is immune from
prosecution in a criminal case.
And even his own party Speaker McConnell said that he
thought that Donald Trump could still be held accountable after
the impeachment ended in an acquittal,
that there was still the criminal justice system.
And so I think that he will not get away
with this very vast expansion
of the idea of presidential immunity.
It fits more with what his attorney general did when
he auditioned for the job,
William Barr. He wrote a memo that said basically there
was unlimited unitary executive power,
and that's what he was arguing,
is something like this, which would end up making the
president above the law completely and totally.
He couldn't be indicted for anything he did before,
during or after his presidency.
So Dave Aronberg, there are so many Trump
legal developments this week it's hard to keep track,
but one that sort of slipped under the radar late
yesterday he announced that he is dropping this lawsuit,
I think believe for $500 million
against his former right hand man,
his former fixer, Michael Cohen.
Cohen, of course, is source in prison time and then
very much turned on Trump.
What do you make of this Trump?
And you know, his attorneys left the door open that
he could refile,
but why do you think Trump made this calculation now?
And is it because, well,
he didn't want to be deposed?
Jonathan The last thing that Trump wants to do right
now is to sit for a sworn deposition while he
has all these civil and criminal cases swirling around him.
And there's nothing that Donya Perry,
the lawyer for Michael Cohen,
would have liked more than to depose Donald Trump.
She's really good, and she was looking forward to it.
But right before the deposition,
he called it quits. And look,
people were wondering why he showed up to the New
York case this week.
And the reason I think,
why he showed up was because the deposition in the
Michael Cohen case was set for this week.
He got to postpone it because he had to be
in court for his trial.
Remember, he didn't show up for the EG Carroll trial,
but he showed up for this one.
He did not want any part of this deposition,
and now it was postponed to Monday.
And right before that deposition,
he said forget about it and don't expect him to
file another lawsuit against Michael Cohen.
He's not going to go through this again.
This was all about show,
not about go. I don't.
I've lost count on the amount of litigation that former
President Donald Trump is dealing with.
But John Sale, I want to get to your conclusion
and concern.
Especially because in the fraud trial,
the judge did put a gag order on Trump with
his social media.
And that his defiance seems to be ratcheting up
when it comes to
ratcheting up the rhetoric and reacting to what's happening in
these court proceedings and showing his explosive anger out loud
and perhaps even drumming up danger and violence from his
base. That's what some are concerned about.
You're concerned about a constitutional crisis.
Can you please explain?
Well, he's no longer the president.
He's a former president, but he's being treated as if
he's the president.
That's why we're talking about him
24/7. That's why when he
goes to be caught, he doesn't have to be put
in handcuffs like everyone else.
He's not put in the lockup like everyone else.
I think what what I said once before when I
was on the show is he's taking everything out of
the Roy Cohn playbook.
So just lashing out at the judge's clerk,
I think he just couldn't help himself.
I think he realizes that's over the top.
But I think what we're going to be all looking
at is the hearing on Monday before Judge Shunkin in
which there is there a motion for protective order.
I don't want to call it a gag order.
And I think she's going to do a very narrow
order,
which is going to say things he can't do,
which is going to be threatened witnesses.
And then I think he won't be able to control
himself.
So the question becomes what does the court do and
about to be sum up about two weeks ago
I thought there's really nothing they can do.
They can find him he'll become more of a martyr.
He'll raise more money and I would have said but
you can't input him in prison it just doesn't work
practically
well. I've changed my mind.
I think that ultimately if he defies the court order,
the IT it's does more harm not to than to
do it because the message would be he's above the
law.
And I can assure you if anyone of my clients
did what he is doing on social media,
threatened witnesses, threatened to the judge,
a witness General Miley should get the death penalty,
that they would be locked up.
Mr. Blanken Freed was locked up and one of the
judges from the Second Circuit said
the 1st Amendment does not give you the right to
threaten or intimidate witnesses.
So I really think that Donald Trump,
as Governor Christie said, is afraid of prison.
And I think with that holding over his head,
we'll see. But the possible constitutional crisis,
as my friend and former colleague Jill will remember,
is the Saturday Night Massacre involved
President Nixon
threatening to disregard a court order.
He ultimately didn't do that.
If Donald Trump does disregard a court order,
I think we have that potential crisis.
What do we do about it?
And the ultimate sanction is prison.