Welcome back to the Sports dot interview.
Today we're going to be talking about NCA sports amateurism
or not.
And to do that, we bring back Front Office sports.
The great reporter over there,
Amanda Kristovich and Amanda, I'll tell you what your story
I mean,
you've been on top of this.
So if anybody hasn't read Front Office Sports and I
read Amanda's work and you want to catch up with
what's going on here,
make sure you go do that.
But Amanda, your latest piece,
really, I mean for me,
hit home because you reported that since
2019, the NCAA and Power Five schools have been lobbying
in Washington,
OK, people say big deal.
Everybody lobbies in Washington, but this is a significant amount
of money they're spending to kind of overturn what we've
seen in the last couple years with the nil and
a lot of the things last time we talked to
you about the Dartmouth case,
right. So you look at what they're doing here and
they're not just doing it,
but they're really going out and using some of the
most high-powered firms to do this.
Tell us a little bit about what you found out
and then we'll get into some of the details on
what they're trying to do.
Yeah. So I basically have been working on this story
for several months.
It was first brought to my attention,
You know, I mean we all sort of see these
quarterly lobbying disclosures that are public that come out.
But it was brought to my attention by
Richard Ford and Casey Floyd to
really, really incredible minds. Like as you could put it,
who started this website called Did you Know Media.
And they gave me the idea for this story because
they basically found that between 2019 and
2023, the NCA and Power 5 conferences had spent
about $15 million in lobbying
on Capitol Hill. And that does not include and like.
In addition to that, they've also enlisted 2 really,
really powerful, well connected PR firms.
The Power Five has a right wing firm.
The NCA has a left wing firm and you know
the obviously the cost of that are probably in the
millions as well,
although the public disclosure is a little different there,
you know, And So what I found was that it's
not just like the money's only the beginning of the
story is kind of what one expert explained to me,
right,
who they are using and how coordinated their effort is.
I mean they are using the NC as lobbying
firm, also lobbied for Purdue Pharma.
They're experts in crisis communications for the big bad wolf
right?
And literally the same people
Dyk Media found like who the actual employees were lobbying
for Purdue Pharma.
Some of them were also lobbying for the NCAA
on the Power Five side.
There are like at least 8 firms,
also some of the highest grossing firms in the country.
They also have really high-powered clients,
you know, like Pfizer, for example.
And they are they, you know,
and there's this thing that I learned in lobbying called
the revolving door,
which is like where lobbyists
or people who work on Capitol Hill go work at
lobbying firms and then they go back to Capitol Hill.
And so, like the NCAA's firm installed a secretary of
the interior under the Trump administration.
And then when he left the Trump administration,
according to his LinkedIn, now he's back at that firm,
right. So I mean, just like the amount of power
and and influence that these people have,
one of the firms at the power conferences have all
been or have all worked with,
has ties to Mitch McConnell,
obviously a very powerful person.
So I mean, the list goes on and on.
And the PR firms similarly have worked for Uber.
You know, the Biden, Harris presidential campaign.
The right wing firm was actually started by a group
of Marco Rubio campaign,
you know, employees, strategist, experts,
however you want to call it.
So, I mean, these people are the best in the
business,
and the money is really only the beginning of just
this sophisticated and coordinated effort to save amateurism.
Yeah. And it's interesting, too,
because, I mean, I think pointing out the money is
one thing,
But you're right. It's the people and the power associated
with these people,
the connections they have, that shows the seriousness of which
the NCAA and these Power 5 conferences are attacking legislation.
In essence, they want to have legislation and we'll get
into that in a second.
But when you look at this,
I think for people, for fans out there,
we'll get to the athletes in a second.
But for fans out there,
I don't think they think of NCAA.
They know it's a big money maker,
right? They don't think of it in the same category
as big Pharma or these political campaigns on both sides.
They look at it as,
oh, it's it's the local university.
But in reality, they're operating just like any other big
business would in the halls of Washington,
aren't they? Oh, absolutely, absolutely.
And look, I mean, the amount of money they're spending
isn't record-breaking.
That's what I was told.
But again, it's who they're aligning them.
First of all, $15 million
for a nonprofit. There are laws in this country,
the IRS, you know, there are laws and rules about
how much money educational nonprofits,
501C threes, right. The NCAA is 1.
The all the conferences are one.
Schools are right.
There's limits on how much they can spend on lobbying,
right? And and for good reason,
because you don't want all of your,
you know, educational public funding to go to,
you know, the pockets of folks in Washington.
And so the way that they are doing this is,
is really not, you know,
I've been told it's sort of like,
conducive to an industry as big as theirs,
but it's certainly not conducive to a nonprofit industry as
great as theirs.
Let's put it that way.
Yeah, exactly. And then the other thing here too,
is, but let's talk about the athletes.
Cause what I found fascinating in your story,
too, was there's this big coordinated effort,
which you just outlined for us,
but yet for the athletes now who've been making money
since
2021, you called it the golden age for them,
right? All these nil deals and.
And and we just saw the first lawsuit for somebody
who reneged on an nil deal,
which was interesting to me.
But you look at this and the athletes themselves,
though, there's nobody outside of a few people that you
outline in your piece,
there's nobody there looking out for their interests in the
halls of Congress.
Right. Right. Because the NCAA and power conferences has have
positioned themselves,
you know, to the public and in private as the
representatives of the athletes.
When that's not at all the case and and it's
not at all the case,
not even necessarily because you know,
I've heard there's a, there's a healthy debate amongst college
athletes or amongst the ones who are plugged in.
Most of them don't even know this debate is happening,
right?
There's a healthy debate about whether or not they want
to be employees or or what have you.
But the NCA and power conferences have presented to Congress
this idea
that all the athletes think a certain way.
We don't even know how they think.
We haven't done polling The letters that they sent to
Congress on behalf of athletes,
multiple current and former athletes told me that at the
very least,
they're not representative of what athletes think,
'cause most of them don't know what they think.
They don't know anything about this.
Right? And couldn't it differ?
I mean, Amanda, couldn't it differ?
I mean, if you're a star quarterback on a Power
Five team in men's football versus you're a woman swimmer,
you might have a totally different view and have different
interests as part of that,
correct? Absolutely. Absolutely. And it's
very telling that on all of all these dozen,
the dozen congressional hearings, you know,
lobbyists do help, you know,
with witness lists and things.
And it's very telling that there was only one current
Power Five,
you know, football or men's basketball player on like in
total of all these hearings,
right. All the athletes deserve a say.
But it's very clear that there's,
you know, one idea that's being represented and one idea
that's not.
And I've also heard from athletes that there's,
there is absolutely a divide,
you know about if you're AD 3 swimmer versus AD
one,
you know, FBS football player,
how you think of yourself and what you think you
know,
should you be an employee,
should you not be an employee.
And that's not being represented.
And and as I mentioned in the piece,
you know, the the, the groups that are trying to
advocate,
you know, some of them have the ear of Congress,
they're they're finally getting, you know,
they they're getting meetings. It took them a while.
It's hard for them to get on hearings,
but they get on, they do speak with lawmakers,
but they're just like these individual insurgents,
right? Like they're not even operating in a coordinated effort.
They're kind of all just doing their own one off
thing and and that.
I mean really it's it's very difficult to to stand
up to this coordinated lobbying campaign.
When, when? When that's the crux of the other side.
Yeah. And. And you say in your story it's like
David versus Goliath,
except there's really no David,
right? There's there's no, there's no group that's representing.
But I think with work like yours,
hopefully people start to wake up and there's maybe some
other folks out there with power money who will help
these folks
bring their interests ahead of the government.
Couple things that I find interesting here too,
Amanda, is the fact that they the the NCAA,
really, if you look at it the way you outlined
it,
three things that they really want to do right when
they're talking about passing laws and why they're doing this
is they want one,
an antitrust exemption, which we know a lot about from
baseball,
not from from NCAA college sports.
They also want a law that makes college athletes unable
to be employees,
considered employees, which we talked about with the Dartmouth case
of course.
And then third was to the ability to pre empt
state laws,
which to me, I like.
I read that. I had to read that like three
times,
'cause I'm like, wait a minute,
Knowing our system and how it works in this country,
you want to pass a law that's that subverts every
other state law,
when state laws are supposed to be the interest of
their citizens.
So it's crazy when you look at this list of
three things they're trying to do,
how far are they down the road on this?
Have they made significant progress,
or do we not know that yet?
Look, I mean, they have not made progress in the
sense that any of these bills have made it out
of committees for a vote,
right?
But they have made progress in messaging and into the
fans of college sports.
I would say
be critical about the information,
right? Like the talking points that are emerging from these
conversations,
from these hearings, from what lawmakers are saying.
The death of women's sports,
The death of Olympic sport.
Right? Like just be just know that that's part of
this coordinated effort.
Also it's part of it to,
you know, entice folks who are more Liberal Democrats for
example,
to sign on to this in order to protect,
you know, these other sports and interests.
You know,
But I think and I this is like at the
very end of the piece,
not to spoil it, but it's like the,
you know, these lobbyists, they're playing the long game.
The 2024 election could potentially completely change the makeup of
Congress,
could completely, you know, change who's in the White House
obviously.
And and that is going to,
you know, especially if we have a more Republican leaning
Congress or Republican in the White House,
just based on how Republicans have aligned.
They're not all, you know,
they're all critical of the NCA.
Everybody is. But the way that Republicans have aligned recently
suggests that it would be easier to pass what the
NCA wants in a Republican controlled government.
So doesn't have to happen in the next six months.
Everyone's like, oh, it's not gonna happen in the next
six months.
Well what about after that?
Cause they've got 3-4 years of these athletes being employees
cases,
right? Like the House case is not about athletes being
employees.
These other cases are and they're gonna be going through
appeals.
So they've got plenty of time in Congress to pass
a law that stops those cases in the interim.
And I think like that was what was imparted to
me by experts.
And that's what I want other people to understand,
is that you can see movement
on messaging. You can see movement on conversation.
And you can see movement on what even some of
the more liberal
lawmakers, the how their talking points have shifted,
the the bills that they're signing on to that they
probably wouldn't have signed on to three years ago.
You just, you know, those are indications that
there is, there are seeds being planted for the future.
Yeah. And it's it again to your point about the
messaging and being patient,
they can be patient because there's nobody fighting them tooth
and nail on the other side.
Right. Usually when you see a battle between lobbyists,
you know, outside of sports,
of course just talking in general in Washington,
you see that ramp up and you see a hurry
because they're going against one another in this case like
you outlined.
So well, there's nobody really there.
Let's hope that somebody does step in and and try
to help these college athletes because their interest as you
said and and I think the interests of,
for example, taxpayers of public universities who are who are
paying for this as well and they don't even know
what's happening.
But clearly as I always say,
you know journalism is the IT it's,
it's the best antiseptic for some of this stuff to
get it out in the open.
Transparency, right. So we appreciate you doing that and
it's crazy and we'll see see what happens,
but we'll keep up with you
and find out what the next domino is.
But now at least people are aware and and we
have you to thank for that
from front office sports of course.
And Amanda, we'll keep in touch with you
throughout this and when you have a next update,
we'll we'll get you on once again here on Sports
Not
absolutely. Thank you for having me.