T Shock. Simon Harris, welcome back to the program.
Can I ask you, because there's clearly so much fallout
from what you and Norway and Spain have announced this
week,
and that is you recognize Palestinian statehood.
The question is, why now?
What was the impetus for you doing it now?
Well, it was my government's preferred position to recognize A2
state solution as part of a peace process to bring
that about.
But sadly, unfortunately, such a comprehensive peace settlement now seems
in many ways further away than it has ever been.
We therefore believe that it is so important that we
try to inject a degree of momentum to the fact
that the only way to bring peace and stability to
the Middle East is a two state solution and is
a political peace process.
We believe you can't say you're in favour of A2
state solution and not recognize the very existence of two
states.
So we've worked very intensively with with like minded countries,
with Norway, with Spain and indeed with others whom I
expect to recognize Palestine in the coming weeks.
And our judgement was yesterday,
It is today that now is the right time and
that there is never a wrong time to do the
right thing.
We can very clearly differentiate
between Hamas, which is a disgusting,
despicable, illegal terrorist organization, and the people of Palestine,
the children of Palestine, the civilians,
and the most horrific humanitarian catastrophe that's unfolding.
Can I ask you to tell me what you make
of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs calling in your
ambassador in Israel,
plus those of Norway and of Spain?
And it's, I'm going to read you.
What, what, what they were told your ambassadors.
First of all, they were reprimanded for the move that
you've made.
They, they, they basically call it a twisted decision of
your governments,
a reward for Hamas. Hamas congratulates you on it.
This is a statement. The decision will have additional serious
consequences for our relations with your countries.
And they actually also showed your ambassador,
she happens to be a woman,
but nonetheless, they showed her this really terrible pic video
that the families of certain female hostages have released
to show how they were treated.
It was body Cam video and it's very sickening.
Now, your ambassadors were directly shown that and it was
accompanied by this reprimand.
What is your reaction to that?
Well, the first thing to say is Ireland has an
excellent
ambassador in Israel and she is doing a wonderful job
representing the views of the Irish government and the Irish
people.
And I thank her and I thank the team.
Of course it's any, any foreign ministry can call in
any ambassador.
But what I will not tolerate is any country misrepresenting
the position of the Irish people.
I am the leader of the Irish government,
I speak on behalf of Ireland and we have been
clear and unequivocal that we condemn Hamas,
that we condemn the most terrific barbaric massacre that Israel
experienced on the 7th of October.
We called for the unconditional and immediate release of all
hostages.
But it is entirely possible to say what I have
just said and also say the next bit,
which sadly some refuse to say,
that what is happening in Palestine,
what is happening in Gaza,
is a humanitarian catastrophe, that children are being starved,
are being deprived of food and that there are children
who will go asleep in Gaza tonight,
not sure if they will wake in the morning.
This situation is not sustainable.
It needs to stop. And I have no intention of
being in any way,
shape or form distracted from the immediate need for a
cessation of violence in the Middle East,
the need for the release of the hostages,
for humanitarian aid to flow unimpeded and unhindered,
and for the and the need for a peace settlement.
And I can say this to the people of Israel.
We recognize the State of Israel.
We recognize the State of Israel's right to live in
peace and security.
That is their right. The people of Palestine also must
have an equivalent right to peace and security.
And let me also say this to the people of
Israel.
The Irish people know what it's like to have their
national identity hijacked by a terrorist organization.
The IRA was never the people of Ireland and Hamas
is not the people of policy.
As you say, you do have experience and many say
that your actual experience,
certainly the Northern Ireland experience of actually bringing peace with
with the
Republic's help is a is a road map for these
kinds of terrible conflicts.
But so they obviously the government in Israel is saying
this is just a,
a, a reward for terror.
But I just want to ask you,
because even France, you know,
the, a big European country has said the conditions are
not right yet.
What actual effect do you think
the EU countries? And you say you want more and
you expect more to recognise.
What effect do you think you can actually practically have?
So I do expect more to recognise
and it does obviously have an immediate effect in terms
of the ability of of Palestine to seek to have
an embassy here in Dublin and the ability indeed of
our representation in Ramallah to be upgraded also.
But it has more than that.
I hope by taking what I believe to be a
principled leadership stance that it enables and empowers and encourages
other countries to come forward as well.
Because I know there are many countries that are giving
consideration to this and of course every country must make
a judgement as to when is the right moment.
But it is the considered view of Ireland and indeed
of Spain and indeed of Norway,
three countries which I think any fair analysis would say
have a long and proud history in peace,
in peacemaking and in working towards a two state solution
in the Middle East.
I hope that our recognition gives that sense of positive
momentum.
The state of Israel loses nothing
by by us recognizing the state of Palestine.
Instead, it is a positive step towards peace because what
is happening now cannot continue and it is time for
the world to find the courage of their convictions.
We need to stand by international law,
we need to stand by
human rights and that means children in Israel,
children in Palestine having a right to live safely side
by side in peace and security.
Anything else in terms of videos,
videos from foreign ministries and the likes is distracting from
the very,
very serious issue that the serious issue of the humanitarian
catastrophe unfolding.
And let me be absolutely clear again,
what happened in Israel on the 7th of October was
a despicable,
disgusting terrorist act on the people of Israel.
We stand in solidarity with them in relation that.
We've been clear in our condemnation of a mass,
but we also know that the way to bring peace
and security and stability to the Middle East is a
two state solution.
And to bring that about,
you need to recognize the existence of two States
and T shock, as you as you say,
that video, which is just heart rending,
you know, for the families of the women.
And in this case they were women
soldiers. They released it yesterday to the public because they
were trying to pressure their own government to bring back
their family members who are still being held in these
appalling conditions inside Gaza. I also want to ask you
about the following.
There are now, you know,
more and more analysts saying that,
you know, the centre of gravity,
particularly in the European, you know,
centre, maybe moving away from the historic pro Israel politics
and even the
US national security. The official,
Jake Sullivan expressed concern yesterday about the increasing isolation of
Israel.
I just want to play this.
We certainly have seen a growing chorus of voices,
including voices that had previously been in support of Israel,
drift in another direction. That is of concern to us
because we do not believe that that contributes to Israel's
long term security or vitality.
So, I mean, they're angry about the recognition,
but they nonetheless also see this isolation.
Indeed, Senator Chuck Schumer made an impassioned speech
in in Congress in in March about the same thing,
the danger of Israel being isolated.
Would you say that Europe is
recalibrating its position, its relations?
Can I firstly just be very clear,
my comments in relation to to videos very much relate
to videos issued by the Israeli Foreign Ministry directed at
Ireland.
Not in any way, shape or form.
A video is released by families desperate to get their
loved ones back into their arms and my heart goes
out
to the families of hostages and I want to see
those hostages released.
In relation to the situation regarding Israel,
I don't wish to see a scenario where the state
of Israel finds itself isolated in the world.
But Israel needs to, Israel needs to recognize international law,
it needs to recognize human rights,
and indeed it needs to listen to other countries around
the world.
In relation to the the absolute need for a cessation
of violence to take place,
I don't think we should be dividing
countries into camps of pro Israeli or pro Palestinian.
Instead we should be talking about being pro international law,
pro human rights, pro peace,
pro political settlements to conflict.
That is the space we need to be in And
what I'm very certain of at a European level and
indeed saw this at the April meeting of European leaders,
which I intended, is that there is now a unanimity
of views amongst European countries of the need for an
immediate cessation of violence.
And we reached that form of decision point at a
meeting in April.
It's been the long standing position of Ireland,
but it is now also the unanimous position of the
European Council.
The violence needs to end.
We want to continue to have good diplomatic relations with
Israel.
I had a very, I call I valued with the
president of Israel on Friday where we were able to
exchange views and I put forward the views of my
country forcefully and firmly. But I value the relationship with
Israel.
I don't want to see a scenario where Israel finds
itself isolated in the world.
But we do need to see the cessation of violence.
That's what brings about the conditions to create peace and
stability
in the Middle East. And we have to be so
clear.
We have to be absolutely so clear.
What is happening at the moment in Palestine is unconscionable
and it's almost unimaginable.
And I don't yet think the world comprehends the scale
of devastation facing Palestinian civilians.
And we cannot turn a blind eye.
And I will not allow a scenario where in years
to come,
people ask me, what did you do at that moment?
And people ask Ireland, what did you do at that
moment?
The answer cannot be that we stayed silent.
We must stand up for human rights,
stand up against against breaches of international law and call
out this humanitarian catastrophe.
And really they're only the only way you resolve this
conflict is through is through peaceful political dialogue.
As you know, Prime Minister Netanyahu is outright rejected a
Palestinian state.
But as you say, you know,
you don't want future generations to ask what you did
or didn't do.
The prosecutor of the ICC,
Karim Khan, said that to me,
in effect, that he felt that bringing the demand,
the request for arrest warrants on both Hamas leaders and
Israeli leaders was,
was done at this time in order to try to,
to, to, to, to change the balance of power that's
happening on the ground.
The, the, the terrible continued capture of the hostages,
the terrible civilian casualties in Gaza.
But of course, it's had a furious reaction now.
I wonder what I would just like to hear your
reaction to the ICC action,
but also to the fact that not just Republicans in
the US Congress,
but also the Biden administration is considering sanctioning the ICC
and perhaps even Kareem Khan for this,
for this action, for this move.
Well, I have great respect for the work of the
International Criminal Court and indeed for the the work of
the international court structures that are in place.
I think they, I think they serve a very important
purpose and I as a,
as a politician, as a,
as a peace shock, as a Prime Minister,
don't wish to cut across
the independence of that work.
I am conscious that the prosecutor has ever made a
request of the ICC and I understand that will be
considered over over several weeks.
And then let's see where that process brings us to.
But I, I don't intend to provide a running political
commentary
out of respect to the independence of the ICC,
which is a which is an independence we very much
value in Ireland.
Simon Harris, Irish tea shock.
Thank you so much indeed for joining me.
Thank you so much.