We have been watching a concerted effort by Christian conservatives
to implant their beliefs more deeply into American life and
law,
blurring the separation between church and state.
We have been reporting on laws restricting abortion access on
the basis of a religious belief of when life begins,
along with Louisiana's new law to require the 10 Commandments
in every public classroom.
And there have been lawsuits that each new law is
spurring.
We've been covering those as well.
Today, one of those lawsuits regarding another attempt in another
state was just brushed back.
The Oklahoma State Supreme Court ruled that a local school
board must rescind its approval for what would have been
the nation's first publicly funded religious school.
Finding it violates the state's constitution and quote would create
a slippery slope.
Joining us now, New York Times opinion columnist David French.
David, really good to have you
the
the new energy put into these lawsuits and these attempts
or even this this new legislation to more
deeply embed conservative Christian beliefs into American law and American
Society.
Why are they happening? It seems so much more frequently
today.
Yeah, there's been a change,
actually, in much of the argument on the right.
So for a long time,
I was a religious liberty lawyer before I was a
journalist.
And so my argument was that religious institutions should approach
the public square with equal rights to everyone else.
In other words, don't treat religious speech as second class
speech.
Don't treat religious institutions as second class institutions.
And I think that's the sound constitutional approach to religious
liberty.
But overtime what's happened is more people on the right
have become consumed with the idea of a religious authority.
Not that we should be on an equal basis with
everybody else,
but that we should have greater authority to implement our
religious ideals than other members of other religions.
And so there's a giant difference,
for example, between a private Christian School that might receive
funding just like other private schools do from through a
voucher program,
and what we're talking about in Oklahoma,
which charter schools have been traditionally considered public schools.
So the charter school isn't a private school.
This would be a public religious school,
not a private religious school.
And that clearly implicates the Establishment Clause.
So there's this transition from,
hey, we want religious liberty,
which is treat us the same as everyone else,
which I completely endorse, to we want religious authority,
which is we will privilege our religious views over everyone
else's,
and that's not constitutionally kosher.
Where does that change come from?
Why is that change happening today?
Why? Why do people who want to make it an
authority instead of an equality,
why do they feel more emboldened today?
Yeah. You know, I think there's been a culture change
in a lot of the the new right.
There's been because this is actually,
it's it's new if you're a younger American.
This is very old if you're an older American.
People who remember, say, for example,
the religious establishments that were dominant in many,
you know, in particular southern states in the 40s and
the 50s.
And, and there is this sort of idea that we,
you need to use the power of the government
to turn that clock back to sort of a
1950s style American legal regime that would permit things like
mandatory school prayer,
mandatory Scripture reading, mandatory Bible lessons,
things along those lines. And so
you've begun to see in the,
in the right in particular,
a big move away from a more libertarian idea that
says we all get equal rights and we should all
be treated equally to the more authoritarian idea that says,
hey, Christianity built this country.
It gets pride of place.
Christians get pride of place in our local governments,
in our, in our schools,
in our policies. And that that's a,
that isn't what's old is new again kind of argument.
And that's creating real constitutional problems.
In your reading of the Constitution,
is there, is there an argument for Christian authority that
this country is based on
Judeo-christian values and therefore Judeo-christian values?
And in this case for them,
conservative Christian values do actually have more quality than everybody
else.
They, they do take precedent over everybody else's belief,
whether they are Islamic or Jewish or,
you know, non denominational or,
or just anti or someone who doesn't believe in
religion at all.
Well, you know, there's a lot of argument for religious
liberty and there's a lot of argument for religious acknowledgement.
In other words, say, for example,
beginning a, a legislative session with prayer,
so long as the prayer is,
you know, there's ecumenical access to it.
You could have a rabbi,
an imam, a priest, you could have people from different
faiths
praying in turn. And you know,
having equal access to that form into that opportunity.
There is not an argument for religious establishment.
So establishment is different from liberty.
It's different from acknowledgement. Establishment is when you say
this is a state school run by the Catholic Church,
as in the charter schools,
which Oklahoma's always said are public schools.
This is a public school run by diocese.
Establishment is when you say
we're going to require every school to have this particular
version of the 10 commandments.
And look, Christians would see that clearly if,
for example, a different state was saying every school must
post the five pillars of Islam,
they would say, oh, I see that clearly as an
establishment,
but that's there. There is a giant blind spot here.
And, and what's a half a blind spot?
Is it a willful blind spot?
For some people, it's a willful blind spot.
There's no question. There's just no question.
But for a lot of average ordinary people,
they have not thought through the implications of the doctrine
that they're pursuing.
They think, I like the 10 commandments.
What's wrong with the 10 commandments?
And they sort of don't dive deeper into what are
the implications of saying the state
can require this kind of religious expression in every classroom.