So, so Mike, I wanted to go back to Pete
Weiner's excellent column in the Atlantic, you know, because there's
been hand wringing through the how do we understand the
Trump voters?
We've all done it.
What what do we need to understand?
What is this about?
This is the forgotten working class man and woman.
This is blah, blah, blah.
At this point.
This is about people, as Pete says, who are knowingly
supporting a a guy who is spewed authoritarian talking points,
a guy who lies repeatedly, a guy who twists the
facts, bends the facts, lied about the last election.
And Pete, I wrote it down.
He talked about how they don't like straw.
If they're presented with strong arguments, compelling arguments, compelling facts,
they'll push away.
I I would say it's even more than that.
They are allergic to basic facts.
Donald Trump lies all the time.
They are allergic to the let's take the big lie
for instance.
They know Mike Johnson knows it's a big lie.
Lindsey Graham knows it's a big lie that, you know,
they have 63 federal judges who and courts had said
this is a big lie.
They had a Supreme Court that said, the United States
Supreme Court that said this is a big lie.
They know with even Republican officials saying from Georgia to
Michigan, this is a big lie.
They know it's a big lie.
So what do they do?
They go to to websites that that are funded by
Qatar or or TV networks funded by Qatar are are
funded and run.
It's sort of a front for a Chinese religious cult.
They know.
They know what they're doing.
Mike, at this point, the gig is up.
They know exactly what they're doing.
They're spreading lies in support of a guy who wants
to be an authoritarian leader.
You know, Pete came up with a a marvelous phrase
in that piece.
Motivated ignorance and the motivated ignorance of Donald Trump has
been a lifetime habit.
A lifetime habit he's been, he's been operating on motivated
ignorance since he's been 1718 years of age.
He did it all through his business career, all through
his life, nearly every day.
And in politics.
He's done it consistently.
And he has developed indeed a cult around him.
Now, part of that cult, I would think, given human
nature, you'd have to feel badly for.
Because they are people who bought into what Trump says
in his motivated ignorance, thinking it was going to help
improve their lives.
Well, it hasn't.
It hasn't.
And that's the way you defeat Donald Trump, point out
the facts of people's existence, the big tax breaks that
he always talk about.
Did it help someone making 100 thousand, $100,000 a year?
No, it helped people making millions of dollars a year.
And so now in the debate, for the first time,
that motivated ignorance is going to be displayed publicly in
an empty hall.
There's going to be no crowd saying, oh, yeah, that's
great, Yeah.
Applauding.
If he does indeed walk towards President Biden's podium, if
he does the crazy things that he's apartment to do,
it'll be met by silence and he'll be told to
go back to his podium.
His microphone will be shut off.
That, I think, is going to be the most interesting
aspect of this debate.
Amanda, I don't know whether you agree with me or
not, but the fact that he's isolated, no crowds, no
applause, no feedback, Yeah, I do agree with that.
I mean, we don't know what is going to happen,
but I recall all the tales from White House aides
who recount with in great detail how Trump confronts people
and approaches every conversation is essentially is an exercise in
power dynamics.
If you believe their tales about how he swears at
people, use his fiscal presence in personal conversations in the
Oval Office in Mar a Lago, which I do because
I have no reason not to believe them because they're
so entirely consistent.
I I do believe he'll be able to manipulate the
stage in that way.
I don't think personally, if I had to venture a
guest, he will be intimidated by the lack of a
cheering crowd because this is how he acts.
You can't say that he's not authentic.
He is authentically aggressive.
He is authentically authoritarian.
So I don't think he's going to have any problem
trying to steamroll the debate moderators, Joe Biden.
And it will be an exercise for them to see
how to constrain him.
Yeah.
And Jonathan Lemire, I just want to underline.
I want to underline Mika's point.
Mika, of course, always right.
Underline Mika's point that nobody knows TV better than Donald
Trump.
Nobody's used it more effectively than Donald Trump.
He has spent hundreds of hours in a quiet studio,
TV studio and did quite well knew how to play
the camera, knew how to play the camera angles.
And And you know, I've, I have been thinking all
along that this would would hurt Donald Trump.
But Mika, I think you may be right.
And and just real quick, Jonathan Lemire, it's not just
the hundreds of hours doing The Apprentice.
I mean, he doesn't need he doesn't need even the
practice for this meeting.
Aaron quiet.
He doesn't practice.
He just he's if the camera's on, he's dangerous.
He goes for broke.
If you look at his depositions, look at his depositions,
those were on camera, super awkward with a attorney of
E Jean Carroll, who's extremely talented and Trump was despicable,
distasteful, gross.
He was anything he wanted to be in that deposition
because a camera was on and it causes him to
light up in the most base ways in my opinion.
I don't think he's afraid of anything.
And in his mind, he hears a huge crowd like
cuckoo, he hears a huge crowd.
In his mind, he can make anything happen.
Jonathan Lemire.
Yeah.
I mean, there's never been an American politician who's been
in front of a camera more or more at ease
in front of a camera than than Donald Trump.
That is certainly clear.
The Biden, the theory of the case, though, they watched
him do that CNN town hall a year or so
back where he ran roughshod over the moderator and was
cheered on by a bunch of Trump loving Republicans.
And that's what made them think, as I've reported, say,
you know what?
When we meet with this guy in a debate a
year from now, we don't want a crowd.
The other part of that is because the Biden team
really wants this to be as much as it can
be a policy focused debate.
And if you like, well, Donald Trump will fall short
in trying to discuss policy or he'll reveal policies that
are out of step with the American people.
So the Biden team certainly feels good about the fundamentals,
about the setting of this race.
But you're right, we have seen Trump in debates before
at times deliver strong performances.
In 2016, the Republican primaries, he was unquestionably the star
and winner of most of those debates.
But we've also seen him really struggle in this format.
And I think, of course, in 2020, when he completely
bombed that first debate, likely stick with COVID at the
time, though, he didn't announce it yet.
And that really helped Biden in the race.
But what is very clear is a lot of wildcards
here.
And neither men have done a, neither man has done
a debate in quite some time.
It's early, but it's a significant inflection point in the
campaign.
Yeah, I think it really is.
And, and again, Mickey, you're, you're, you're so right.
I mean, he's done this so often.
You know, we talk about practice.
He doesn't have to practice.
The guy doesn't, he doesn't need to practice at all
between now and the debate.
He can just walk out there because he's spent his
whole life doing this.
So I think personally, I think him practicing would be
a waste of time.
All right.
Editor at the nonpartisan group Protect Democracy, Amanda Carpenter, thank
you very much for being on this morning.
We appreciate.
We'll see you again soon.